Arthur Cole 1:14

Welcome back to the Newt podcast. With me, Arthur Cole. Join us for a walk through the estate with our invited guests to the backdrop of the Somerset Landscape and its wildlife residence. This week we're joined by Paul Lamb, celebrated hedge layer and best-selling author of his recently published book of Thorn and Briar. Paul takes us through the practicalities of hedge laying, how it connects him to the land, the association with nature, and why we're seeing a resurgence of this ancient country craft. It's a crisp winter morning. Let's jump straight in. Paul, if hedges could talk, what would they say about us?

Paul Lamb 2:10

They would say to slow down and to rediscover our connection with nature, to not forget who we are and not forget our connection to the land. And they serve to remind us of that, you know, a walk through the countryside to be able to see the legacy of those people of the countryside in the past that tended the countryside, tended the hedgerows. And that speaks of that time when we did have that connection. So I think, yes, that they would say, yes, of course, we must move forward. We must embrace technology and the benefits of modern living. But don't forget the lessons of the past, don't forget our heritage, our traditions, and the important role they play, not just to the countryside, but to us as human beings.

Arthur Cole 3:04

So, Paul, we're looking out towards the south, and we're looking at in the distance Camelot, otherwise known as Cadbury Castle, an Iron Age hilltop fort. And between us and the Camelot, we have a network of hedgerows, some unbroken lines, and others which look like a really a dotting of trees in one line. What's going on there?

Paul Lamb 3:36

So hedgerows are constantly trying to revert to their natural form. It's by careful management, by laying and trimming, that we retain them as hedgerows. They can either be overmaintained, which is what we quite often see nowadays, where they are trimmed relentlessly year after year and have no laying incorporated into their management. This will eventually cause them to thin and die back, or they can be undermaintained. This is when the management regime is abandoned completely, and in that case we see the Hedro revert to a line of trees, which is what we're seeing there.

Arthur Cole 4:15

Paul, we're walking up on a structure now, a type of boundary. This is our dry stone walling workshop area. Yeah, it's beautiful. What have you got to say about this?

Paul Lamb 4:27

I think it's a lovely structure, and dry stone walls uh you know have a lot in common with hedgerows. Farmers, landowners uh were dividing the land, looking for ways to retain their livestock, and they were using what was available to them. So uh, you know, on the uplands they're quarrying stone, they're using the stone for dry stone walls. On the lowlands, uh they're they're planting woody shrubs and trees uh and and creating hedgerows. And we see uh you know on the Somerset levels where the earth is that soft peaty earth, uh, and they're digging the ditches, it's draining the land, but it's also serving as a stockproof boundary, some way that they can retain their livestock. So people were were working with with what was to hand, and within that we see this beautiful evolution of of craft uh and different ideas, different styles, techniques across the country. Uh, and I think that's yeah, beautiful things.

Arthur Cole 5:31

So this dry stone wall is um is a West Country style. Are there different styles of hedge laying?

Paul Lamb 5:40

There are very much so. They all rely on bleaching and laying the stems to uh increase density. Um obviously they want them to be their primary function is to retain livestock, so so they rely on pleaching, cutting part way through each stem, about four-fifths, uh, and then laying them over either diagonally or horizontally to create uh a fence from the outset, a living fence. So from the south of England to uh Cumbria in the north, we have different styles evolving. There's perhaps 30 styles that are still used widely today. Um, but back in the heyday of hedgerows and hedge laying, you you would have encountered different styles between villages, uh certainly between districts. And what we find is that, you know, even in those days the craft was celebrated, they would have had agricultural shows, different tradesmen, craftsmen would have been able to show what they could do with a hedgerow. Uh, and eventually this led to different styles, uh, you know, styles that became distinct to that particular district. And it depended on, again, like dry stone walling, the the materials that were available. Here in the West Country, we quite often see hedgerows laid horizontally on the top of an earth bank. The earth bank would have played an important role in the barrier, uh, and the hedgerow was planted on the top. Somewhere like the Midlands uh or going to say the South Downs, you don't see the bank so much. And in those cases, you see a hedgerow supported on a line of stakes. Uh but depending on what livestock is going to be kept in the Midlands, where uh perhaps cattle farming was being used more, uh the hedgerow would be more robust, a tougher looking structure from the outset, a higher looking structure on the South Downs in the south of England. Uh, you're going to see a lower, softer looking hedgerow. The stakes are running down the middle, the weaving, the binding through the centre of the hedge is slightly different. So they all rely on the same method of pleaching and laying the stems, but then distinct intricacies have been brought in by uh the agricultural practice of the of the district. Yeah, and so what they had said is that a countryman, if lost in the countryside, would be able to tell whereabouts he was in the country by the type of hedging that he encountered.

Arthur Cole 8:25

So, Paul, can you let our listeners know how you first got into hedge laying?

Paul Lamb 8:30

Yeah, so I I've travelled about quite quite widely and uh I grew up in New Zealand. I was born in Essex uh in the east of England, uh, moved to New Zealand when I was four, came back at at sort of fourteen, I was nearly 15, and I felt like a fish out of water, if I'm being honest with you. You know, I came back from quite a rural environment to quite an urban one. And it wasn't until a couple of years later when I first visited the West Country and I felt more at home. Uh so returned to Essex uh at 16 and um worked and saved and passed my driving test, and by the time I could look after my own affairs, by the time I was approaching 18, I'd come out to the West Country and I was finding work on local farms. And as time progressed and um and went on, and I was aware that I wanted to try and find a career, something long-term and with a bit of stability, I started working with a woodsman uh in a in a Dorset woodland, and hedge laying was one of the skills that I learned, amongst others, uh, whilst in this woodland. And in fact, I can remember the guy saying to me, Look, I'll teach you this skill, it's something that you should know how to do, but there is very little demand for it. And in fact, you may never be asked to do this again because uh, you know, although this is the way that all hedgerows were once maintained, now it's a dying, a dying craft. Nevertheless, there are still some people that want it done occasionally, and we've got a job to do next week, so I'm going to teach you how to do it. And of all the different skills that you know that I learned, it was hedge laying that had this huge appeal because to be able to stand back at the end of the week and see this this structure. Uh, you know, it was a real to me as a as a young man just starting out, it felt a real accomplishment, something that I loved the creativity in it. Um, I loved the fact that it tied us to the landscape and it had been carried out for centuries uh by countrymen of the past. And so, yeah, I mean, I fell in love with the craft. As time progressed, hedge laying, rather than dying off completely, began to see somewhat of a resurgence. And I think that it was the increasing awareness of the conservation benefits of hedgerows, it was the awareness of the diminishing biodiversity in the countryside, and then these forgotten boundaries, you know, I describe them as uh almost an agricultural bygone. Hedge laying was seen as an outdated technique for managing outdated boundaries, but suddenly people became aware that hang on, they're so important for the nature of our farmland, we need to look after these structures. So gradually, what I saw was was an increase in demand for hedge laying until eventually I was able to do the work as my primary employment through the winter as I still do now.

Arthur Cole 11:40

Can hedge laying be done at any other time of the year, or if not, why not?

Paul Lamb 11:45

The old wisdom said that hedge laying could be done with any month in an hour in it. Uh, so generally, you know, we'd start in September and it would have gone on into April. So as soon as the harvest has finished on the farms, uh the labourers are then going out and they're maintaining the farm boundaries, the dry stone walls, the hedgerows, the ditches. And so, still today we start in September. The plants are are are beginning to fall dormant. Of course, they won't lose their leaves until November. Uh, but we start pleaching and laying in September, and then I carry on through until about March. By late February, the birds are thinking about nesting, the bird song is becoming louder. You take a walk into the woods or the hedgerows in late February, and you can hear the birds getting busy. By March, they're nesting. And so, whereas mechanical flailing comes to an end at the end of February, has to come to an end at the earliest onset of spring, the hedge layer who's more perhaps more in tune with what's happening in the hedgerow, so we can keep our eyes on what the birds are doing at the first sign that they're nesting, then we pull out of the hedgerow, the hedges are left to the birds. Of course, by September, that's all done, they're all finished, uh, and we can again go back and start our work again.

Arthur Cole 13:06

So, how does that well-laid hedge support the ecosystem and the wildlife?

Paul Lamb 13:13

You know, Britain was was at one time covered by woodland, you know, amongst amongst heath and and and grasslands, and so hedgerows really are a linear woodland. And in a country that has comparatively little woodland cover compared to our European neighbours, hedgerows are essentially a surrogate woodland. Uh, they provide safe passage across open pasture. The areas of woodland that that remain, our our copses and spinny small woodlands, are linked by hedgerows, which allows the wildlife to travel safely between them.

Arthur Cole 13:53

Alright, Paul, I want to take you down and show you a little bit of our own hedge laying here that we laid last winter. And um actually it was a group of workshop attendees. People had signed up and were taught by your friend, the man you introduced me to, Mr. Mike Reeds.

Paul Lamb 14:14

Yes, fantastic hedge layer, fantastic guy. He's got a real grip on that craft.

Arthur Cole 14:19

Yeah, he has. Um, and a wonderful way of sharing it. So those workshops were massively successful. They were oversubscribed, which sort of shows you the I guess the uh the demand for hedge laying, or at least understanding it and learning to do it, which um I guess you were told by the man who taught you was not there. That demand isn't there. But I do you think it's growing?

Paul Lamb 14:48

Oh, absolutely I do. Um as you say, I don't think he would have believed it if I'd said 30 years from now, you know, there'll be people queuing up to learn this craft, and that it will be all I can do to keep up with the workload over the winter. I mean, generally I'm booking for the you know the season to come and seasons thereafter. And I speak to other hedge layers obviously, and they're the same. So it does continue to grow. Uh, you know, and what I'm keen to see is is young people coming into it. Of course, the aim of of any craft like this is to is to pass it on, and that's what I've found. It's it can be quite solitary work, which which I quite enjoy. You know, I enjoy the you know the the the farmland environment, I enjoy uh being outside and being able to fully absorb myself in the work. Uh, and for a long time I thought, well, you know, I wasn't interested in in teaching really. I was just content to to carry out the work that I loved on my own uh and be in my own space. But I think as I get older uh I realize the importance of passing that on. So I am encouraged when uh I've run some courses recently, and you know, there's a a huge diversity, a huge range of people that attend. Initially I'd thought it was going to be young farmers, landowners, smallholders, people that perhaps wanted to maintain their own boundaries. In fact, I've had solicitors, estate agents, lawyers, you know, people that perhaps will never go on to layer a hedge again. But it's it seems to me it's about perhaps reconnecting with the outdoors, with nature, uh, working with their hands. And hedge laying looks beautiful, but it's a basic agricultural technique, and really you can learn it, you know, like any craft, it takes a long time to perfect, but even after a day, you can create something that looks beautiful, that sits well in the landscape. And I think people have enjoyed coming out, having a day in the countryside, in the open air, working with their hands and creating something beautiful. Uh, but what's been particularly encouraging for me is seeing young people coming to learn who then want to incorporate it perhaps into an existing business. It's a skill that they want to learn because they want to practice that going forward, uh, and of course, that's what we want, that next generation of custodians in the in the countryside.

Arthur Cole 17:30

Right, Paul, you've spoken about beauty. Come and give this one a judgment. You can see it behind the newly erected deer fence, which maybe that's um maybe that's a comment on the quality of this work. We thought that the hedge that was laid was going to do the job of the deer fence, but clearly somebody else has thought differently. Give us your appraisal of this hedge laid last winter.

Paul Lamb 17:55

You know, it's good. I can see it's been laid in the uh in the North Somerset style, uh, so it's incorporating stakes either side of a row of laid stems, so almost like a corridor of of vegetation um supported on on stakes either side. Uh, you've got some hazel in there, and so all the plants are going to react differently to pleaching and laying. Hawthorne became the preferred plant generally. You'll see different plants. So, in in the south of Somerset, down towards Devon, uh you see a lot of elm in the hedgerows. Places say North Dorset, Shaftsbury, uh into Wiltshire, Warminster, you might see a lot of blackthorn. You know, they were using what was to hand, but when they set up nurseries, it was Hawthorne that really became the most popular plant, and this really responds well to the process of bleaching and laying. We're going to see all that regeneration, and we're going to see a real thick, thorny, stockproof boundary created. We've got a lot of hazel here. Hazel, of course, regenerates profusely from the stump, and we see that in our coppice woodlands, but it doesn't regenerate so well from the laid stems. So, quite often, what you'll see is people have perhaps attempted to bridge gaps with hazel stems that are pleached that are still attached, still anchored to the stump. And although we get this profuse regeneration from the stump, we don't see so much from the laid stem. So a hedge restoration will quite often incorporate pleaching and laying, but it will also incorporate uh coppicing, so cutting down uh trees that have grown up tall in the hedgerow, allowing them to regenerate, replanting, uh, and allowing the stems to really reach a density where they can then be eventually laid, uh, and you get that stockproof barrier from the outset. Uh, so this is, you know, it's great people have come in here and they've been able to pleach and lay and get an idea of uh of what's happening. Uh, and then probably, you know, on that bank there, uh you could incorporate some some planting in there as well and really uh get something to grow up and encourage that boundary to to thicken up.

Arthur Cole 21:21

Paul, I like that you mentioned that elm formed part of the some of these ancient hedgerows. Elm, of course, one of those trees that suffered near extinction in Britain through uh Dutch elm disease. However, I have seen old elms and they tend to be in old hedgerows because they're never allowed to grow up to higher than about 20 feet, which I believe is what spells their doom because the the beetle that carries the Dutch elm disease flies at 20 feet in the air. So if you're an elm tree and you remain below 20 feet, you're you're safe. That's the hedgerow acting as a conservator really for the elm.

Paul Lamb 22:05

Yeah. Elm makes a great hedgerow, you know, it sends up this this suckering growth from the roots, and you're exactly right. Maintained as a hedero, and maintained as any other, ideally by incorporating laying as well as trimming into its management, you're going to get a thick, healthy, dense hedgerow. It's only when, as I say, the management regime is abandoned and it's allowed to grow into a tree, and as we've said, the hedgerow is is constantly trying to revert to a line of trees. Unfortunately, in the case of the elm tree, if that is allowed to happen, it will succumb to Dutch Elms disease. But if you go down to, so I think about uh jobs that I've done on the Devon border down towards, say, around Wellington, miles and miles and miles of thick, dense, healthy, robust elm hedgerows.

Arthur Cole 23:00

So I remember the hedgerow that we're standing in front of here. I remember coming in and doing a little bit on this with the workshop attendees and the array of bill hooks and all manner of sort of medieval-looking torture implements that Mike pulled out for us to get working with. It was amazing. Can you tell us a little bit about that array of tools and what you rely upon most as the hedge layer?

Paul Lamb 23:27

Yeah, so the traditional tools for the hedge layer would be the bill hook and the axe. And like hedge laying, if we say different styles evolved dependent on the agricultural practice of the district, and and and the same with the tools. So if you can imagine that that every uh village would have had the blacksmith shop, would have had the forge, and the men who worked on the farm or on the estate would have gone to the forge for their tools. We know that at the end of the harvest they're going out and maintaining the boundaries. So The billhook evolves as a tool that is used in the wood, in the coppice woodland, and is the primary tool for hedge laying. And then different patterns evolved dependent on, you know, you may have had one district where they preferred something heavier and thicker or more robust, and another district where they preferred something lighter that was easier to use all day. And through that we get distinct patterns. We think about the Yorkshire pattern, which is a big, heavy, looks like a meat cleaver, very distinct pattern, quite a heavy tool, almost a cross between an axe and a bill hook. And then if we were to go to the east of England to Suffolk, we've got a very light hook, a light pattern, still very obviously a bill hook, and very obviously related to the tool that is the Yorkshire hook, but different in design and weight. So there's a vast array of bill hooks. These would have been used in conjunction with an axe, which would have been used to take out the bigger material in the hedgerow. So like they would have used an axe in the woods to fell the trees, they would have used an axe in the hedgerow. We know that hedgerows are just linear woodlands. So the tools really crossed over between woodland work and hedgerow work. So the reality is now, like we see uh chainsaws used in the woodland, we're going to see chainsaws used in the hedgerow. And my primary tool for my hedge laying work is the chainsaw. My background was uh working in woodland management, uh, so you know, timber cutting and coppicing and and this sort of thing. Uh, and the chainsaw was the and is the go-to tool for that. And of course, we're bringing uh bringing this skill into the into the modern day, and like you wouldn't expect uh a farmer to go out with his uh Shire horse and his ransoms plough, although that's lovely to see at an agricultural show, uh you know, he's going to get on the tractor and so the hedge layer is going to pick up the chainsaw to lay the hedge. Uh, obviously, when we're doing courses, um, you don't just say, you know, welcome to the hedgerow uh and here's a chainsaw, all the best, I'm gonna go and put the kettle on. Uh, we're working with the traditional tools. And it's nice to it's nice to do the work without the chainsaw screaming in your ear. It's nice to just work with the with the hand tools, but the hedge layer is going to be paid on a meterage rate, and and the majority of hedgerows that we encounter today are going to be in a pretty poor state. They're going to incorporate uh mature trees that need coppicing or pollarding. Um, they're going to incorporate big stalls of hazel that need re-coppicing. So to try and do that with hand tools uh is not practical. You know, hedge laying and hedgerows still have an important role to play in you know in modern land management, modern agriculture. Um, so we want to use you know all the skills and the tools that we have at our disposal to really try and make an impact in in restoring the hedgerows.

Arthur Cole 27:15

Paul, can you tell us a little bit about what goes into laying a hedge, the practicalities and the timescales involved?

Paul Lamb 27:23

The first job is to clear out the hedge. When we look at a a hedgerow when we're driving through the countryside, walking through the countryside, we see this structure. So the first thing to do is to get in there and thin it out so you're taking out anything that you're not going to use in the final build. So that might be any deadwood, any stems that don't lend themselves well to the laying process, so things that are perhaps uh twisted or knotty or or look like they're dying back. We're going to take out any elder. Elder grows twice as fast as everything else, is prolific, bullies its way to prominence, but then tends to die back and leave a gap in the hedgerow. So we'll take out any elder. We'll also take out any brambles that have that have gained a foothold, and what we want to do is leave the best plants that are available in the row. Once we've done that, we're going to pleach and lay those stems, and this is going to create a boundary, a fence from the outset. So essentially, what we're doing is we've got all the benefits of coppicing. We're cutting four-fifths through that plant to leave a coppice stump that's going to regenerate, but because we're going to leave the stem anchored by a living tongue of wood, we're going to be able to create from that a living fence. So we pleach, we cut four-fifths through the stem, we lay it over diagonally until we've got the whole row in that condition. At this stage, the hedge is at its most vulnerable. It's not going to keep any livestock in, they'd be able to push through it. So we reinforce it with a line of stakes. So these are generally stout hazel stakes cut at about five foot six from the hazel coppice. We put those down the centre of our pleach stems of our laid plants. It by now starts to resemble more of a fence. The final job is to put binding between those stakes to bind the hedgerow. So these can be willow rods or hazel rods cut at about 10 to 12 feet, and we plait those between the stakes, and then once they're pushed down, they will compress the laid thorns, the laid plants into a dense mass. So what we get is a fence that is capable of retaining livestock from the outset, but that is going to regenerate with the spring once the sap starts rising and continue to thicken year on year. So essentially, we've got a fence that is improving with each season. We're going to then maintain it by trimming, and this is just going to encourage more horizontal growth. You know, the web of thorns is going to knit together to make this impenetrable barrier, which is such a valuable habitat for wildlife. Eventually, after years and years of trimming, back in the old days, say every 15 to 20 years, the hedge becomes so dense that it begins to shade itself out. When this starts happening, the hedge will start dying back in the base and gaps will start to appear. The livestock are going to notice this, they're curious by nature. They're going to start exploiting these gaps, making them bigger. This would have been the sign to let the hedge grow up tall so we would avoid trimming it for two or three years, let it grow up tall, and then it would be laid again. So essentially, at each time of laying the hedgerow, we're renewing its life cycle. So when we talk about these hedgerows that have been in the landscape for hundreds and hundreds of years, of course, it's not the vegetation that's hundreds and hundreds of years old. We are renewing that vegetation at each time of laying. So in this way, the farmer, the landowner was constantly working with young, vigorous, strong, healthy, thick, dense growth, and that's what kept our hedgerows uh in such a good condition.

Arthur Cole 31:34

Paul, what would you say is the hardest part of hedge laying to learn?

Paul Lamb 31:41

I would say I would say it's the pleaching and and laying really. So you're cutting through the stem about four-fifths, uh, and I always say it looks at first uh destructive really rather than a regenerative technique. If you were, you know, ignorant of the method, people would be thinking, Crikey, you know, what are these, you know, what's this person doing? They're killing the hedge. But because we're leaving that living tongue of wood anchored to the stump, come the spring, the sap is able to rise, we get all that regeneration from the cut stump, and we keep the stem alive. So we're essentially creating a living fence. And it's getting to know how the different species respond. Uh, so for instance, uh, something like hazel uh and hawthorn, especially young plants, pleach relatively well, uh, they're supple, and you you can gauge how to work them either with the chainsaw or the traditional bill hook. Whereas something like field maple, so the sycamore, uh field maple, uh they're going to be more brittle uh and more inclined to snap. So I would say the pleaching and the laying certainly is the most difficult of the of the different techniques to learn.

Arthur Cole 33:03

It's a very tactile thing, laying a hedge, and it's not so easy as just to use terms like, well, four-fifths and uh and and fractions like that. There's so much of a feeling. Absolutely right. And as you say different words with their different elasticities, you can explain it so far, but you've got to feel it. How long does it take before your hands on on average, before your hands really get a sense of what to do?

Paul Lamb 33:33

Well, I perhaps months and months really, you know, you you're exactly right, you know. I've I've had people along to these courses recently, and as I say, it's essentially it's a basic agricultural technique. But although you can learn the the method, what you do to make it work, although that can be learned in a relatively short period of time, it's by it's only by getting out there and getting in amongst it and getting the feel for it. How each how each species lays, you come up against those different problems. I think for me that's one of the great appeals of it, is that each hedgerow is is like a puzzle, uh, and quite often you'll come up against a structure that is in some decline, that is really, you know, diminishing, is thin, is gappy, and you think, okay, this is what I've got to work with. How can I create something that is not only going to you know regenerate, uh, be beneficial for the farmland, wildlife, uh, sit well in the landscape, but how can I create something as a contractor that is going to look you know beautiful, that the customer is going to come out and look at it and say, ah yes, that's great, that's a real improvement on what was there. Uh and so, as you say, it's only by getting in amongst it and you thin out that vegetation, see exactly what you've got to work with, and then formulating a plan and knowing what plants respond in what way. You know, I might be working in a row that incorporates hazel and blackthorn and elm and thinking how how it can be worked uh so that you get the the best barrier, the best boundary that you you can.

Arthur Cole 35:22

So, Paul, I want to talk a little bit about this new book that's out in all good bookshops now of Thorn and Briar by well by yourself.

Paul Lamb 35:34

Yes, yes. Yes, so you know, it's quite solitary work working in the in the hedgerow, and uh in the winter evenings I uh would sometimes keep a journal, you know, just things that I'd seen, different jobs that I'd done, uh, and I'd I'd keep some notes. Uh and I was approached by a literary agent who uh had seen some of the photos that I'd posted on social media of my work, um, asked if I'd ever considered writing a book, uh, which, although I'm uh an avid reader, I hadn't ever imagined uh that I'd that I'd write a book myself. But nevertheless, I had done some writing um which I sent to her and and she said, Paul, I think that you could write a book that could mean something to to some people. Uh and so uh much enthused, I put together a a proposal um which uh incorporated an introduction, so talked about me and my work, you know, what I was doing, why I thought hedgerows were so important, and I wrote a couple of of chapters, and uh yeah, the the agent then took it to the publishing houses in London, and if I'm honest, it it was around the start of the autumn, it was September time, uh, and I wasn't expecting anything to to come of it. Of course, I hoped it would, uh, but I was concentrating on the season in front of me. Uh she she took it round the publishing houses, uh, thereafter started a bidding war, and she in fact said to me, right, Paul, they you know, we've got four publishers now that are very interested and they'd like to meet you. Uh, we want you to come into town. Uh and I said, What, Taunton? She said, she said, no, no, we want you to come to London and uh uh and meet these people, and it was a fantastic experience. She said to me, she said to me, Paul, you'll get a feeling from from one of the publishers, and you'll think, do you know what? They get this book, they get what you're trying to achieve. And I'd mentioned uh some authors from the past. Um, I've got some antiquarian books from countrymen of the past, and one of the publishers picked up on that particularly, uh, and that really rung true with me, and that was a guy called Chris Doyle at Simon Schuster. And we sat down, and over the next 12 months, I wrote the book of Thorn and Briar. Uh, and it just you know follows me. I, you know, travel around a lot for my work uh and predominantly throughout the West Country, uh, and it's just about the different characters in the countryside, uh, the different jobs that that I work on, the different hedgerows that I work on, but also the spring and the summer, the time when we can't lay hedgerows, and uh, you know, I'm working with my friend, he's a charcoal burner, uh, going to visit the Hazel Coppice in Hampshire. Uh, these old rural characters that have always had a great appeal to me, and I describe them as conservationists by default, really. Of course, uh, the conservation of our countryside isn't their primary reason for working uh in the way that they do. They're just working in a in a way that was passed down to them through through generations before. Uh, working with materials, stone, uh, hazel, willow, you know, the hedgerows, working with materials that people always worked with. And it is through that connection with with those materials through the natural world, through our environment and our farmland that they perhaps unknowingly uh preserve the heritage and the tradition and the biodiversity of our countryside. So, you know, I've tried to introduce the reader to some of those characters as well.

Arthur Cole 39:24

Well, you talk about your connection with these countrymen, these rural characters. We've just had a rural character drive past us, that's Jim, the gamekeeper, who's been here for over 20 years and has seen a fair share of this landscape change, probably most profoundly in the last let's say 10 years since we've been shaping it into the newt. He often talks about the connections he feels with the people that came before him. What sort of connection do you feel with the generations that shape these landscapes before us?

Paul Lamb 39:59

Yeah, I think I feel uh a direct connection to them. Um you know, despite relying now on uh on the chainsaw, on on power tools, you know, when you're uh out working alone uh in the weather over the winter months, you can really relate uh to those men, to those those people of the past. And of course, you've only got to look out over the landscape and see their legacy, you know, in whether it's in the woodlands, uh in the hedgerows, in the walls, in the roads, in the tracks. That has been their legacy. The countryside has evolved alongside us, and it's been through our management that we've got the landscape, the beautiful British countryside that we've got today. And so I feel very much uh a part of that tradition, uh a part of that heritage, working to maintain that, preserve it, and then to pass it on, as I say, to the next generation of custodians. And I think that that's what's so heartbreaking about the modernisation uh of the countryside. It seems that in the past, I I've said this before, that uh that of course the countryside has always been a place of work, it's always been a changing place. The landscape that we see has has come about through agriculture, through sustaining ourselves. And so we need to embrace change and accept that and and move forward. But what we mustn't do is forget the lessons from the past. And I felt that that almost these old characters, this old wisdom, this old way of thinking, this connection to the land, had been disregarded. It was seen as outdated practitioners of it, you know, the old hedge layers, the old countrymen, they were seen as dinosaurs, lovely characters to have a chat to down the pub over a pint of cider, but don't take them too seriously because we've got a new way of doing things. But now we're realizing that there was a wisdom there, a way of thinking that we need to preserve and we need to retain. I've certainly always felt a connection to that and um and I'm keen to pass that on.

Arthur Cole 42:20

So, Paul, the future of hedge laying, does it look bright? Is hedge laying under threat or is it quietly resilient?

Paul Lamb 42:31

I am uh confident that that we will continue to see to see this resurgence. I think I think certainly that the tide has turned. I think people have realised that we need to manage the countryside not just for our own benefit but also for the benefit of uh species diversification uh and wildlife. And so I'm encouraged to see this renewed interest. And I think that that what's important is that it's going to be the multi-generational farmers, the farmers look after our landscape. And although we have lots of uh new people moving into the countryside and small holders, and perhaps that's that's up to half of my work, these you know, newcomers to the countryside working on the hedgerows, laying the hedges, but it's trying to move that across into the real working heart of the countryside, the the farmers and and bigger landowners. And I have seen that. I have seen you know renewed interest from them, so I find that encouraging and I hope we continue to see that that drive forward, that that push in that direction.

Arthur Cole 43:43

What has hedgeling taught you about in terms of working with nature rather than against it?

Paul Lamb 43:50

Yeah. My thoughts are that we are a part of nature, we are nature. Um, you know, the the wildlife of our countryside evolved alongside us. There's been a uh a train of thought that says we need to remove ourselves from the landscape to see nature recover. When in fact, you know, we're nature ourselves. It's by working regeneratively, sympathetically with the landscape that that we thrive and the wildlife around us thrives. Hedge laying for me uh has been so beneficial, and although the rewards aren't necessarily, the financial rewards aren't necessarily as good as some trades, mentally, physically, working outside, on the land, close to nature is is a wealth in itself. And as I get older, I come to realise that more and more. Perhaps as we prioritize things, uh we become aware of how finite our own lives are, it's by appreciating the small things, the changing of the seasons, the deer there that I'm looking across to in the deer park, uh, the beautiful winter sun, we're just a day past the midwinter solstice. Uh, and it's those things that I have found ultimately to be rewarding. Working with your hands on the land in nature, a wonderful life, I think.

Arthur Cole 45:23

Literally laying legacy here. And once you finished a stretch, what would you hope that hedge would be doing in 50 years' time?

Paul Lamb 45:35

Well, I like to think that that, you know, when I'm working in the hedgerows, I can quite often see the clues of the people that have worked there uh in the past. And so, you know, by laying a hedgerow, we're creating that habitat, and I hope that it then goes on to be rich and abundant with uh nesting birds and invertebrates and and wildlife. By the time 50 years has passed, I would hope that that hedge would be being laid again, that somebody else will be picking up the bat and that we've made enough noise about the hedgerows and their benefits that in another half a century there's somebody else there to carry on my work and carry on the work of the hedge layer.

Arthur Cole 46:25

Do you think there's any connection between working outside and a sense of freedom, uh improved mental state? And do you think that coincides with the improvement of the natural world?

Paul Lamb 46:45

Very much so. Outdoors, uh you know, connected to nature, uh out in the countryside is the condition in which we evolved to thrive. I think that's the condition that we're geared up for. And I think the further we we move from that condition, that's that state, the more difficult we we find things. And I think that in recent years and recent decades, success has been, you know, measured by goods that we accumulate over a lifetime and you know, financial wealth, and and people have been geared to chase that and to run towards that, uh, and that's been their drive. But I think that ultimately that can lead to a feeling of of dissatisfaction, and and certainly what I've seen on my courses is people that have come from a corporate background, and perhaps they've ticked all the boxes and they're doing alright, but still they especially as they get older, there's an awareness of perhaps something is is missing, and they come and look for that on a on a hitchlane course because in their busy hectic lifestyles of not having time to just breathe and be outside and work with their hands uh and do something physical, uh, you know, something's been missing. So they'll come out, and certainly over the course of the day, I can I can watch their brows relax uh and throughout the morning and and through our work they open up, and by the time they leave at the end of the day, they've got smiles on their face, I've got a big, you know, a warm shake of the hand. Thank you ever so much, it's been such a lovely day. And you know, so I think that that's probably obvious across the board is that, you know, I'm I'm not a dreamer, I'm aware that we're all just trying to get through and do our best and earn a living, but certainly working in tune with the seasons, close to the land, close to nature, is the condition in which we evolved to be healthiest and fittest both physically and mentally. Uh, and so it's important to make time for that in our lives to uh to ensure that you know we run to the best of our ability.

Arthur Cole 49:13

Paul Lamm, celebrated hedge layer. Thank you for joining us on the Newt Podcast.

Paul Lamb 49:20

It's been an absolute pleasure. Thanks, Arthur. A beautiful landscape here. Uh, lovely to see what you're doing, and uh I look forward to visiting again in the future.

Arthur Cole 49:41

Thank you for listening. Subscribe and tune in for more episodes from the estate every month. See you next time.